I am sorry, but if she wins there will be no chaos in the streets. If it’s the other way there will be chaos! My spouse has mentioned becoming militant if the election doesn’t go to her.
We have had one of these discussions in my house. I was told that Trump wasn’t shot in Ohio. That nobody died that day. That I get all my information from Rush Limbaugh…who I quick explained was dead. And that I don’t love my oldest child (F to M) if I am voting for him. There were more arguments that night. Lots of tears and little in the way of apologies. It has and will continue to disintegrate our relationship. I am willing to live and let live. But I do believe when people say that liberalism is a mental disorder. Because her hatred will continue for another four years. She flips off every Trump yard sign we pass. That’s not normal behavior. I am almost scared to see what is going to happen when Trump wins.
I heard much the same prediction the other day when listening to libertarian, Dave Smith, on his podcast, "Part of the Problem." He's astute and totally objective about the parties, since he belongs to neither one, and is slightly less repulsed by Trump than by Harris. But he's advising that folks vote Democrat, because if Trump wins, the TDSers will destroy the country.
Addendum: I was just listening to today's podcast, and Dave is now reconsidering his position and thinking of voting for Trump. He hasn't decided yet. Interesting.
To ConcernedDad, this is exactly the same thing that I am going through right now with my spouse ie; flipping off yard signs, yelling at people waving Trump flags (a total embarrassment if you ask me). When this happens, I try to change the subject immediately. My spouse is such a die hard Harris supporter that she ordered from Amazon and wears her bracelets that say "Save Democracy". My fear is that Trump wins this election, it will turn ugly very fast and that our 21 years of a happy marriage will be in jeopardy.
I’m stunned by all the commenters that are afraid of what the left will do when Trump wins. Are you people nuts?? So you lay down because they are crazy? That’s called tyranny! Put on your fucking big boy pants and grow a spine! This is much bigger than your fear of the woke mind virus lunatics. What kind of country do you want to leave for your kids?
A major [whatever appropriate color] pill was living in the PNW. Seeing the city I live in boarded up because of left-wing rioters, who were out almost nightly: Windows broken, spray paint everywhere, scorch marks from attempted arson, specific streets at night becoming "no go" areas.
Meanwhile, all my good liberal friends, their major concern was the Proud Boys, who would only show up every couple of months, and as far as I can tell, mostly did not destroy anything. It was constant, weird excuses:
* Anti-fa isn't a real group (OK, they use that as slogan to identify themselves...)
* Trump is the real threat (that doesn't make rioters less of a problem for the city)
* Police don't de-escalate (even when the police were told to stand down the rioting would happen)
* They aren't REAL left wingers (OK. So why not condemn them completely?)
Eventually I told my friends this was the conversation we were constantly having: We're camping and a pack of wolverines are going nuts in our campsite. I say "These wolverines are dangerous and destroying things!" My friends would say "You know what the real problem is? The bear outside of the campsite." I say, "I get the bear is dangerous, but right now the bear isn't here and a wolverine just scratched out a chunk of your face." You say, "Was it actually a wolverine or was it a raccoon, sent by the bear, PRETENDING to be a wolverine?"
I too lived in Portland then. That is when I flipped from D to R. My husband had long been a Trump supporter and I voted for HC in 2016.
My now 37 year old daughter who was attending an Ivy League bastion of liberal idiocy nearly disowned me when I changed my views. She informed me that I needed to listen to her as she was one of the “ smart ones”, implying the obvious. She and her family moved back to Portland in 2021. She got a job as a school psychologist at the high school she attended, front and center to the idiocy being peddled as “ education”.
She is now more conservative than I am. She had to live it to finally get it.
I hope that for you…. My husband and I could peacefully coexist when we voted differently, but I was not very vocal back then either. Not implying that you should be that way. We were just generally not very confrontational , which has its own set of issues.
The schism between my daughter was very painful. My husband used to comfort me, saying age and experience would broaden her very rigid viewpoint. He was right. My son came around as well. A gay conservative. He works in the airline industry and has the travesty firsthand of DEI hires. My youngest is softening. She just became a mother… when she experiences the horrors of the trans movement via exposure it will become literal rather than hypothetical . She is a pro athlete in a very liberal women’s sport so has been force fed the Kool Aid. When it hits you personally, you change. The socialist utopia looks alright on paper, theoretically. Living it? Not so much.
It’s not so much the Trump or Kamala thing. It’s the values behind who they represent. People change and their values evolve, and then you wake up one day and realize that you and your partner no longer value the same things. This is something I am struggling with right now, that this is going to last beyond November 5th, no matter who wins.
Bingo. Values. The question is, what causes people to betray their own values? May it's fear. Fear of a virus, fear of a free press, fear of other Americans; i.e., "deplorables." But why are some afraid, and others not? I still don't understand it.
To me, an old, liberal (once radical ) lesbian, my most important value has always been the First Amendment. A Jew, I defended the right of Nazis to march through a Holocaust survivors' neighborhood in Skokie, Illinois. I saw the Jewish attorneys at the ACLU who defended the Nazis' right to free speech not as self-hating Jews, but as heroes who based their life's work on our bedrock principles. They weren't defending Nazis, they were defending the principles that allowed the United States to be the diverse country where everybody wanted to live. If one group's speech is censored, everything topples.
The former ACLU, not today's version which bends a knee to woke ideology, was not just patriotic, but exemplary. Today, it's not possible to have this conversation with liberals; their eyes glaze over and they go dumb, even the ones my age who used to agree with me but now can only mouth words as if in a trance: "dis/mis/mal-information, dangerous, racist, Musk, Trump, January 6, control speech to save Democracy" and so on.
Hillary Clinton says we need "control" over speech, and we see this trend circling the globe like another pandemic.
I agree with your last sentence, and it's very, very bad, and sad.
Read the sentence you wrote (that I am responding to). I think this isn’t about politics at all. I think this is about both people feeling a lack of respect from their spouse, and I suspect that this has been a long-term issue (maybe one you’ve faced before at other points of disagreement in your lives). And it’s also about communication in the marriage. My heart hurts for you.
I am relatively new to your Substack, but already I have noted a pattern where you feel unsupported by your spouse, which makes you act alternately a bit needy and (when your needs aren’t met) aggressively. I don’t know whether Mr. Miller understands how his behavior makes you feel, but his acknowledgment of being a “asshole“ seems to indicate some awareness of it.
This is not a good pattern. If — and this is a very big “if” — you could find a based and old school couples’ therapist to help work through these issues, it would do both of you a world of good. I know therapy has been captured by wokeism, but there are still a few old dogs out there who won’t learn the new tricks.
You can't and shouldn't live with unprovoked ridicule and disrespect. But if you're bringing up Trump stuff, he'll view it as a provocation and fight back.
For what it's worth, my opinion is that if you can let go of your desire to have him validate and respect your views, you have a chance. You can't take it personally. He's not capable of giving you those things in the context of politics, and most likely he never will. It could happen, but I wouldn't sit around expecting it. If you can focus on your common ground, your love for each other, whatever's left of it, and see what you can create that reminds you of why you fell in love in the first place, maybe you can hold it together.
If you can say to him: "We see things differently. That's okay. I don't care who you vote for. But I can't abide ridicule and disrespect. I will promise not to goad or challenge you if you promise not to ridicule and invalidate me. If we want to keep our love alive we need to respect our differences here and let it go at that."
I'm dealing with something similar, although not as intense, because I'm not married to her. She's one of my oldest and best friends and we lived together in a love relationship for 10 years. She slowly moved from center left to far left, and I moved from center left to politically homeless. We had to agree to never discuss politics again, because we see eye-to-eye on almost nothing. Otherwise we were hanging up on each other every other day.
I think it’s just triggering for both of you. And trump does say a lot of crap which gets amplified by the Democrats. I don’t see any utility for go over these already painful pathways.
So I think in marriages there are types of communicators that just immediately slip into the same thing over and over again. With more frustration and anger each time. I don’t necessarily think talking for the sake of talking does a thing for this type of issue. It’s just my take but I would avoid this talk if at all possible. There is no winning.
And politically trump is such an ‘imperfect carrier’ of the political message you wish to hold (anti woke anti gender ideology, anti left wing bullshit) that the discussion easily gets into all of trumps myriad faults.
My advice. Take it or leave it.
I’ve been married for almost 30 years. There is some stuff we never resolved. At this point it doesn’t seem to matter.
We'll be married 30 years in July, together since 1991. It's just that this type of conflict has never happened before. I was blindsided by his lack of respect and the ridicule. And he admits it. Something about Trump really truly deranges him.
And now that more than one person has commented that I baited him, I am honestly interested in seeing this in myself. Was it when I asked what about Kamala or at the very beginning when I started the conversation? Because if I can find that in myself then I have way more power to end it.
I’m totally get that your marriage never had this challenge before. Makes sense. But here we are. Here the world is. I don’t blame you at all. I don’t think you baited him. But trump is so triggering I think the conversation goes off the rails so fast and takes its own unhelpful course and leads you and your husband away from each other so quickly. We are never taught that avoidance is great in a marriage we somehow think that talking everything out is the answer. But maybe give avoidance of politics a chance?
This is wisdom. Best freaking advice Not so young!
It’s a scar that has to heal, which means the scab needs to form and not be pulled off.
Whatever this is about, more talking won’t solve it. When ideas become inflamed, become obsessions, there is no rational conversation, just triggers.
I’ve had to quit a number of things over the years and the ‘why’ seems to come out later, first the self- destructive thing had to stop. A rubber band on the wrist, a ‘don’t take the bait’ sticker on my phone for my BPD mom, purging my contacts of ‘brilliant’ druggie friends, avoiding certain parts of town...
Maybe a safeword to shut the shit down? Maybe an airhorn if certain candidates are named?
“…politically trump is such an ‘imperfect carrier’ of the political message you wish to hold (anti woke anti gender ideology, anti left wing bullshit) that the discussion easily gets into all of trumps myriad faults.”
That point applies, not just to the Millers, but to a vast number of Americans today, and it’s part of what is driving the hyper-partisanism.
I don’t think it’s a both sides issue. There is something about Trump’s particular “New York arrogant asshole” persona that absolutely makes people lose their sh*t.
As soon as Trump is mentioned, the conversation is inevitably hijacked into a childish tantrum-fueled litany of untruths (“Trump said he’ll be a dictator on day one“, “Trump said white supremacists were good people“, etc.) And then, without fail, inevitably… it devolves into the coup de grace…JANUARY 6! It was a coup, an armed insurrection! Trump planned it so he could continue in power forever! And you can’t even refute it, because MSM has told them that these views are all 100% true, and anyone who disputes that is an “extreme MAGA liar”. My SIL still thinks that Hunter Biden‘s laptop is not real, and that it was an illegal hack job.
But honestly, I get it. Trump’s obnoxious, and I would’ve preferred (by far) a different candidate. But he doesn’t drive me crazy the way he does other people. At this point, it’s such a cliché that I hate to use it, but… TDS is real.
Hang tight, friend. If (when) Blue America melts down after November 5th, there may be hard evidence for him to behold that his team is an agent of chaos. We'll see, and pray. In the meantime, I'm wrapping you in love, hugs, and prayers for peace in your heart and home. xo
Ugh, that conversation must have been so hard! I can totally imagine me having a very similar talk with my husband. But we’ve been avoiding politics like the plague lately and have been doing so much better. Thanks again for continuing to share all of this stuff with us. It really helps to know we aren’t the only ones going through this!
I feel like you are baiting your husband. He has asked you not to discuss this stuff for the sake of your marriage and for the mental health of both of you. But you keep going there. Why? It seems like you want to fight, you want to tangle, you want to wrestle. You are angry and frustrated but he is not the enemy. This is displaced aggression. Share it in therapy or get some Maga friends to connect with but stop going after him. He is going to grow tired of your contempt for him. And driving him further away and possibly ending your marriage is not going to help your relationship with your daughter. She will be the one who ultimately suffers from your inability to focus on connection, gratitude and positivity. You need to have some empathy for people who can't see things the way you do. Especially your own spouse. That is more likely to help him think from your perspective. You are not going to argue him into seeing things your way. Just love and accept him, flaws and all.
I was going to suggest if Mrs Miller (who I have great empathy for, as over time my marriage too has become mixed politically) if she can keep the political conversations limited to specific issues she cares about most (like gender) and less about Trump vs generic Democrat, which can spiral our further and further.
With my wife, and to be clear I'm doing a write in vote, I don't play dumb, but I will make a non-committal response if it's something I think could be a thing if we went further into it. Something like "Huh. Is that right?" or "Huh, I don't know about that."
Recently she was flummoxed by an Hispanic coworker who is voting for Trump. This woman seems to be often defending Hispanics and complaining about how other ethnic groups are treated in the progressive racial hierarchy. I just left it at "Well, people have different values and group interests," though I really wanted to get into *why* the progressive impulse to have a race based spoils system could backfire.
I am a lifelong Democrat since voting for Dukakis in my first election in 1988. Campaigned for Clinton on my college campus in '92. Did get out the vote activities for Obama first term. Also pro-choice activist, I used to do clinic defense in New York City and was on the first national board of directors of a national pro-choice student group. I won't vote Democrat anymore because they don't know what a woman is. I am a massive, loud and proud terf and attend local politicians' town halls to ask them their opinions on the gender cult. Shoved Reem Al Salem's statement to the UN on Women in Sports into Sue Altman's hands at the end of her Town Hall in New Jersey a couple weeks ago as her handlers were blocking me from talking to her and she was scurrying out of the building (while wear wearing my Woman: Adult Human Female tee, of course). I am not voting for President, I will write in Kara Dansky or JK Rowling. Can't stand Kamala and can't bring myself to vote for Trump because he is a disgusting misogynist pig. I will vote Republican in all the down ballots. My husband is former Democrat, now voting for Trump because of immigration and the gender cult. My 72 year old second wave feminist mother is all excited to vote for a woman. My 80 year old stepfather is career military and a lifelong Republican, one of the most decent men I know, he's a Trump voter. And my 20 year old daughter moved out of my house last fall and a month later sent an email to the entire family that she never felt "like a girl" and is now going by a different name and "he/they" pronouns. She hasn't spoken to me in a year. So, yes, this is all very personal to me. And not worth fighting with family members about. I am just trying to keep us all together at this point.
Thank you for putting it all out there, as always. I think you and your husband are amazing. Both vulnerable, both whole-hearted, both jerks, both committed, both everything. I am also a human being, so am good at recognizing fellow human beings.
Thank you so much. I appreciate your seeing the balance between me and the mister. Especially after opening myself up to criticism. Appreciate you DO!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
This was Super uncomfortable to read lol. I actually couldn’t finish it Mrs! I avoid these types of arguments like the plague in my marriage. I call them the go no where arguments. It’s best avoided 😉 and more talking usually doesn’t make it better. Sometimes I just give silence to the most provoking of things that are said. It’s actually more powerful than arguing back.
Hi Sam, thanks for letting me know. I don't blame you for not finishing. It was uncomfortable to post too. I did it because of the brittle partisan tenor running through the culture right now and since I err on the side of sharing, well, who better than me. I also err on the side of stirring the pot, apparently. 😂 fwiw the silence had grown too swollen. I popped it like a boil. Now it's draining. The next post won't be as brutal. Thanks for your support. ❤️
For what it's worth (because everyone has opinions and only you live your life): I think you may be baiting him. And he is being condescending. Neither approach to a disagreement is beneficial to the marriage---which will hopefully last longer than the next president's term no matter who it is.
That's the key. Yes, he is blind to the flaws of Harris, but he's willing to overlook them to vote against Trump (which so far is the only reason people are voting for her). You recognize many of Trump's flaws, but you are willing to overlook them for the policies he will bring, especially around social and cultural issues. Both candidates are flawed and corrupt. He, at least, won a nomination to this office.
Her history in being elected is interesting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Kamala_Harris). She barely won district attorney in 2003 and then won as incumbent after that, BUT if you look at the map, you'll see that her support is only in the coastal areas and one county in the Inland Empire. Huge swaths of the state did not vote for her. This is what will happen to the US if the democrats eliminate the electoral college. Mob rule by coastal elites. Additionally, she has said that she would removed the filibuster to pass abortion law with no protections for religious abstention and no limits on viability (and she won't say that she wouldn't do as Walz did by signing an order of protection for doctors not provide care for babies born alive during an abortion.) Regardless of where anyone stands on abortion, the willingness to change the checks and balances of the United State Congress(the legislation branch) to further an agenda is far more dangerous that Trump calling himself dictator-for-a-day.
Plenty of good arguments to vote against Harris, but I don't think, with two weeks left, civil discourse over politics will improve your marriage. I think it's more important to focus on the things over which you both have control, beginning with avoiding condescension and baiting.
Mrs M, I'm highly sympathetic to your situation, but I'm gonna be that friend who tells you the truth as I see it.
(Stop here and delete this comment if that's not what you want.)
OK, here goes: I think the lion's share of the blame is on you here.
Capsule summary of the start: "Mrs asked her husband, “Do you think there’s going to be chaos after the election?” ... Mr answered yes. Mrs asked if he thought it would be the same level of chaos no matter who won.... Mr said it would be worse if Kamala Harris won, because “Trump likes to rile people up.” Mrs gritted her teeth."
I think Mr's assessment of the situation is pretty reasonable, and I also think that most political observers would think that too, all across the spectrum of politial opinion. So if that's the kind of answer that's going to get you to "grit your teeth", IMO it's a question you shouldn't be asking.
I wonder what you thought you would gain by asking that question.
Hi Mark, totally fine. I appreciate you weighing in. I can see now that you detailed it so specifically, how you and the two other commenters believe I baited him. And you know what? You're right.
Of course I'm not acting alone.
I believe it's possible that he baited me back with his "Trump riles" comment, but I started it.
Regarding your commentary: "I think Mr's assessment of the situation is pretty reasonable, and I also think that most political observers would think that too, all across the spectrum of politial opinion," I find that people on the left, where I came from, feel freer to share their political opinions—aka trump hatred—because they assume everyone agrees—a foregone conclusion that everyone takes for granted, like—cigarettes are bad for you—like DUH. Whereas conservatives keep their lips buttoned because so many of us have experienced that very Trump hatred in our midst when we know we will be voting for him and disagree with their views.
So Maybe Mr was assuming I'd see eye to eye that of course Trump riles people up. How was he to know that that specific line would trigger me, since it's one of the fundamental DARVO techniques the left uses—like when they repeatedly call Trump "Hitler," they rile their party to the point of, for example, writing letters like the ones I documented in recent posts.
It was Joseph Goebbels after all who famously said, "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
I think in the end, truth is my ultimate value. What that means for my marriage remains to be seen. For now we still love each other.
Well I hope you can hang in there Mrs M, and with whatever "hanging in there" means to you. Of course you have the tremendous stress caused by Miss M's actions to deal with and process, which makes everything so much harder.
I was married for 39 years until my wife died of cancer 3 years ago. We generally agreed on most things social/political (both on the left) but not everything: for example, she was a super-adamant opponent of nuclear power whereas I thought it was needed to help stave off climate change. So we dealt with that by not discussing it very often. There wasn't much point: neither of us was going to change our minds, and we'd just end up both mad if we tried. Every so often she would read something (like about how the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant not too far from us was, Oopsies!, actually built over an earthquake fault that was much more likely to go off than had been previously believed) and get all worked up about it, and I would just say, yeah, that's not good, I hope something can be done to make it safer, yada yada.
Truth is not my ultimate value, because I believe that none of us knows what the truth is. I suppose I would say it's love, as cliched as that sounds. Do I wish I had spent more time trying to convince my wife that nuclear power was, on the whole, safer than burning fossil fuels? Well no I don't. What I actually wish is that I had spent more time not getting mad at her about that, or about anything else that we ever fought about. When I put flowers at her grave, all the fights that we ever had feel really really dumb.
I find the comment “ some things have been blown out of proportion” to be astounding. Um yeah…. Ya think?! Only when it applies to liberalism I guess.🤦
Well, I've already read your follow up post. But here is my two cents worth.
If your voice is raised... in volume or by tone, you are no longer fully rational. Some are better at managing their presentation than others. If your voice or tone changes, check yourself and stop the conversation. Go to the bathroom, offer to get them something while you get yourself a beverage. Take an "organic" pause and while apart, pray earnestly for guidance and understanding.
Understand that some folks, naturally take an opposing view without really being aware of this... might your Mr. be of that variety? Or yourself? Try an experiment. My husband and I did this often in our early days. Pick some random (non political) thing and ask a question. Like, if we won the lottery what would you like to do with half the money? Or, if we could live anywhere, would you choose city or country? Beach or Mountain? What job or profession other than your own would you like to try? What profession would you never attempt?
This sets the stage. Don't dwell on the topics overmuch. Then say, "you know, these are the things I can respect/admire/appreciate about Harris". Then be honest. And sincere. Don't elaborate too much. Then ask the same question of Mr. about Trump. And accept what he says with respect and sincere interest. Then, change the subject. Repeat, changing the questions each time. Do this often but not every day. Resist the urge to argue. Ask questions carefully. This will reset your contentious communication style, hopefully. That's when you can have meaningful deep conversations on mute controversial topics always with the idea of finding common ground.
Remember, men think and communicate differently than women. Respect that difference and eventually he will respect it too. And you as well. You admitting you baited him and his tearful response was a profound moment in your marriage worthy of careful loving contemplation and taking responsibility for your part is the key. Gentle encouraging of his responsibility may be necessary if he makes no comment to that effect, and you don't want to do that on the same day. Ever.
You sound like pretty awesome folks. I hope you are able to weather this.
For the record, I agree with all your points about Trump. My gut tells me if you flipped your view to support for Harris, he might move more towards Trump. That's just how some folks are. I could be wrong. Remember your souls were attracted to each other for a reason.
And then again, I may have my head up my rectum. FWIW. Thanks for sharing your world and relationship with us. Very brave. Good luck and God bless.
My husband and I clashed over politics. Now, we are luckily more aligned. Things I learned:
1) You cannot change him or his beliefs. Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.
2) Disrespect for some is good banter for others. I learned this hearing hubby chat with friends. To me, they were rude to each other. To him, it was banter and they went out for lunch afterwards.
3) Some topics are best avoided.
4) Sometimes, questions are better than arguments.
5) Cultivate non-politics topics to connect about.
I am saying this as a non-American who has only been married for just under 5 years. My thoughts are with you all.
My stomach is in knots reading this. I can only imagine how hard it is for both of you in person. It's almost too much for an outside observer.
I am sorry, but if she wins there will be no chaos in the streets. If it’s the other way there will be chaos! My spouse has mentioned becoming militant if the election doesn’t go to her.
We have had one of these discussions in my house. I was told that Trump wasn’t shot in Ohio. That nobody died that day. That I get all my information from Rush Limbaugh…who I quick explained was dead. And that I don’t love my oldest child (F to M) if I am voting for him. There were more arguments that night. Lots of tears and little in the way of apologies. It has and will continue to disintegrate our relationship. I am willing to live and let live. But I do believe when people say that liberalism is a mental disorder. Because her hatred will continue for another four years. She flips off every Trump yard sign we pass. That’s not normal behavior. I am almost scared to see what is going to happen when Trump wins.
I heard much the same prediction the other day when listening to libertarian, Dave Smith, on his podcast, "Part of the Problem." He's astute and totally objective about the parties, since he belongs to neither one, and is slightly less repulsed by Trump than by Harris. But he's advising that folks vote Democrat, because if Trump wins, the TDSers will destroy the country.
Addendum: I was just listening to today's podcast, and Dave is now reconsidering his position and thinking of voting for Trump. He hasn't decided yet. Interesting.
Amen
To ConcernedDad, this is exactly the same thing that I am going through right now with my spouse ie; flipping off yard signs, yelling at people waving Trump flags (a total embarrassment if you ask me). When this happens, I try to change the subject immediately. My spouse is such a die hard Harris supporter that she ordered from Amazon and wears her bracelets that say "Save Democracy". My fear is that Trump wins this election, it will turn ugly very fast and that our 21 years of a happy marriage will be in jeopardy.
Yes, I can definitely relate. We may need to stay in contact.
Another thing I have had to do is mute commercials when we are in the room together in case a Trump commercial comes on.
Try being the man of the house.
I’m stunned by all the commenters that are afraid of what the left will do when Trump wins. Are you people nuts?? So you lay down because they are crazy? That’s called tyranny! Put on your fucking big boy pants and grow a spine! This is much bigger than your fear of the woke mind virus lunatics. What kind of country do you want to leave for your kids?
Re: who sparks violence.
A major [whatever appropriate color] pill was living in the PNW. Seeing the city I live in boarded up because of left-wing rioters, who were out almost nightly: Windows broken, spray paint everywhere, scorch marks from attempted arson, specific streets at night becoming "no go" areas.
Meanwhile, all my good liberal friends, their major concern was the Proud Boys, who would only show up every couple of months, and as far as I can tell, mostly did not destroy anything. It was constant, weird excuses:
* Anti-fa isn't a real group (OK, they use that as slogan to identify themselves...)
* Trump is the real threat (that doesn't make rioters less of a problem for the city)
* Police don't de-escalate (even when the police were told to stand down the rioting would happen)
* They aren't REAL left wingers (OK. So why not condemn them completely?)
Eventually I told my friends this was the conversation we were constantly having: We're camping and a pack of wolverines are going nuts in our campsite. I say "These wolverines are dangerous and destroying things!" My friends would say "You know what the real problem is? The bear outside of the campsite." I say, "I get the bear is dangerous, but right now the bear isn't here and a wolverine just scratched out a chunk of your face." You say, "Was it actually a wolverine or was it a raccoon, sent by the bear, PRETENDING to be a wolverine?"
I too lived in Portland then. That is when I flipped from D to R. My husband had long been a Trump supporter and I voted for HC in 2016.
My now 37 year old daughter who was attending an Ivy League bastion of liberal idiocy nearly disowned me when I changed my views. She informed me that I needed to listen to her as she was one of the “ smart ones”, implying the obvious. She and her family moved back to Portland in 2021. She got a job as a school psychologist at the high school she attended, front and center to the idiocy being peddled as “ education”.
She is now more conservative than I am. She had to live it to finally get it.
I love that! A dream come true.
I hope that for you…. My husband and I could peacefully coexist when we voted differently, but I was not very vocal back then either. Not implying that you should be that way. We were just generally not very confrontational , which has its own set of issues.
The schism between my daughter was very painful. My husband used to comfort me, saying age and experience would broaden her very rigid viewpoint. He was right. My son came around as well. A gay conservative. He works in the airline industry and has the travesty firsthand of DEI hires. My youngest is softening. She just became a mother… when she experiences the horrors of the trans movement via exposure it will become literal rather than hypothetical . She is a pro athlete in a very liberal women’s sport so has been force fed the Kool Aid. When it hits you personally, you change. The socialist utopia looks alright on paper, theoretically. Living it? Not so much.
It's wonderful to know it can happen. Even if complete agreement doesn't happen, at least more common ground or understanding of perspectives.
It’s not so much the Trump or Kamala thing. It’s the values behind who they represent. People change and their values evolve, and then you wake up one day and realize that you and your partner no longer value the same things. This is something I am struggling with right now, that this is going to last beyond November 5th, no matter who wins.
Bingo. Values. The question is, what causes people to betray their own values? May it's fear. Fear of a virus, fear of a free press, fear of other Americans; i.e., "deplorables." But why are some afraid, and others not? I still don't understand it.
To me, an old, liberal (once radical ) lesbian, my most important value has always been the First Amendment. A Jew, I defended the right of Nazis to march through a Holocaust survivors' neighborhood in Skokie, Illinois. I saw the Jewish attorneys at the ACLU who defended the Nazis' right to free speech not as self-hating Jews, but as heroes who based their life's work on our bedrock principles. They weren't defending Nazis, they were defending the principles that allowed the United States to be the diverse country where everybody wanted to live. If one group's speech is censored, everything topples.
The former ACLU, not today's version which bends a knee to woke ideology, was not just patriotic, but exemplary. Today, it's not possible to have this conversation with liberals; their eyes glaze over and they go dumb, even the ones my age who used to agree with me but now can only mouth words as if in a trance: "dis/mis/mal-information, dangerous, racist, Musk, Trump, January 6, control speech to save Democracy" and so on.
Hillary Clinton says we need "control" over speech, and we see this trend circling the globe like another pandemic.
I agree with your last sentence, and it's very, very bad, and sad.
Yes.
Honestly for the sake of your marriage I would let this go. For now. Neither trump or Kamala is worth it.
I'm inclined to agree. It's the ridicule though. The disrespect. He can vote for whoever.
Read the sentence you wrote (that I am responding to). I think this isn’t about politics at all. I think this is about both people feeling a lack of respect from their spouse, and I suspect that this has been a long-term issue (maybe one you’ve faced before at other points of disagreement in your lives). And it’s also about communication in the marriage. My heart hurts for you.
I am relatively new to your Substack, but already I have noted a pattern where you feel unsupported by your spouse, which makes you act alternately a bit needy and (when your needs aren’t met) aggressively. I don’t know whether Mr. Miller understands how his behavior makes you feel, but his acknowledgment of being a “asshole“ seems to indicate some awareness of it.
This is not a good pattern. If — and this is a very big “if” — you could find a based and old school couples’ therapist to help work through these issues, it would do both of you a world of good. I know therapy has been captured by wokeism, but there are still a few old dogs out there who won’t learn the new tricks.
You can't and shouldn't live with unprovoked ridicule and disrespect. But if you're bringing up Trump stuff, he'll view it as a provocation and fight back.
For what it's worth, my opinion is that if you can let go of your desire to have him validate and respect your views, you have a chance. You can't take it personally. He's not capable of giving you those things in the context of politics, and most likely he never will. It could happen, but I wouldn't sit around expecting it. If you can focus on your common ground, your love for each other, whatever's left of it, and see what you can create that reminds you of why you fell in love in the first place, maybe you can hold it together.
If you can say to him: "We see things differently. That's okay. I don't care who you vote for. But I can't abide ridicule and disrespect. I will promise not to goad or challenge you if you promise not to ridicule and invalidate me. If we want to keep our love alive we need to respect our differences here and let it go at that."
I'm dealing with something similar, although not as intense, because I'm not married to her. She's one of my oldest and best friends and we lived together in a love relationship for 10 years. She slowly moved from center left to far left, and I moved from center left to politically homeless. We had to agree to never discuss politics again, because we see eye-to-eye on almost nothing. Otherwise we were hanging up on each other every other day.
I think it’s just triggering for both of you. And trump does say a lot of crap which gets amplified by the Democrats. I don’t see any utility for go over these already painful pathways.
If I could let it slide I would. That's my work I suppose. Or we've got to figure it out together. We talked more today already.
So I think in marriages there are types of communicators that just immediately slip into the same thing over and over again. With more frustration and anger each time. I don’t necessarily think talking for the sake of talking does a thing for this type of issue. It’s just my take but I would avoid this talk if at all possible. There is no winning.
And politically trump is such an ‘imperfect carrier’ of the political message you wish to hold (anti woke anti gender ideology, anti left wing bullshit) that the discussion easily gets into all of trumps myriad faults.
My advice. Take it or leave it.
I’ve been married for almost 30 years. There is some stuff we never resolved. At this point it doesn’t seem to matter.
We'll be married 30 years in July, together since 1991. It's just that this type of conflict has never happened before. I was blindsided by his lack of respect and the ridicule. And he admits it. Something about Trump really truly deranges him.
And now that more than one person has commented that I baited him, I am honestly interested in seeing this in myself. Was it when I asked what about Kamala or at the very beginning when I started the conversation? Because if I can find that in myself then I have way more power to end it.
Thank you!
I’m totally get that your marriage never had this challenge before. Makes sense. But here we are. Here the world is. I don’t blame you at all. I don’t think you baited him. But trump is so triggering I think the conversation goes off the rails so fast and takes its own unhelpful course and leads you and your husband away from each other so quickly. We are never taught that avoidance is great in a marriage we somehow think that talking everything out is the answer. But maybe give avoidance of politics a chance?
This is wisdom. Best freaking advice Not so young!
It’s a scar that has to heal, which means the scab needs to form and not be pulled off.
Whatever this is about, more talking won’t solve it. When ideas become inflamed, become obsessions, there is no rational conversation, just triggers.
I’ve had to quit a number of things over the years and the ‘why’ seems to come out later, first the self- destructive thing had to stop. A rubber band on the wrist, a ‘don’t take the bait’ sticker on my phone for my BPD mom, purging my contacts of ‘brilliant’ druggie friends, avoiding certain parts of town...
Maybe a safeword to shut the shit down? Maybe an airhorn if certain candidates are named?
Give avoidance a chance! Team ‘shut the fuck up’!
Glad you liked my advice!
cacao!
“…politically trump is such an ‘imperfect carrier’ of the political message you wish to hold (anti woke anti gender ideology, anti left wing bullshit) that the discussion easily gets into all of trumps myriad faults.”
That point applies, not just to the Millers, but to a vast number of Americans today, and it’s part of what is driving the hyper-partisanism.
Hmm. Explain more what you are thinking! I’m interested. Do you mean both sides kind of bouncing off the worst parts of each other?
I don’t think it’s a both sides issue. There is something about Trump’s particular “New York arrogant asshole” persona that absolutely makes people lose their sh*t.
As soon as Trump is mentioned, the conversation is inevitably hijacked into a childish tantrum-fueled litany of untruths (“Trump said he’ll be a dictator on day one“, “Trump said white supremacists were good people“, etc.) And then, without fail, inevitably… it devolves into the coup de grace…JANUARY 6! It was a coup, an armed insurrection! Trump planned it so he could continue in power forever! And you can’t even refute it, because MSM has told them that these views are all 100% true, and anyone who disputes that is an “extreme MAGA liar”. My SIL still thinks that Hunter Biden‘s laptop is not real, and that it was an illegal hack job.
But honestly, I get it. Trump’s obnoxious, and I would’ve preferred (by far) a different candidate. But he doesn’t drive me crazy the way he does other people. At this point, it’s such a cliché that I hate to use it, but… TDS is real.
Also he has no filter. None. And his speech is all free association. No begging no middle no end.
Oops. Beginning
Hang tight, friend. If (when) Blue America melts down after November 5th, there may be hard evidence for him to behold that his team is an agent of chaos. We'll see, and pray. In the meantime, I'm wrapping you in love, hugs, and prayers for peace in your heart and home. xo
Thank you Leah!
Ugh, that conversation must have been so hard! I can totally imagine me having a very similar talk with my husband. But we’ve been avoiding politics like the plague lately and have been doing so much better. Thanks again for continuing to share all of this stuff with us. It really helps to know we aren’t the only ones going through this!
that's why I do it, thank you!
I feel like you are baiting your husband. He has asked you not to discuss this stuff for the sake of your marriage and for the mental health of both of you. But you keep going there. Why? It seems like you want to fight, you want to tangle, you want to wrestle. You are angry and frustrated but he is not the enemy. This is displaced aggression. Share it in therapy or get some Maga friends to connect with but stop going after him. He is going to grow tired of your contempt for him. And driving him further away and possibly ending your marriage is not going to help your relationship with your daughter. She will be the one who ultimately suffers from your inability to focus on connection, gratitude and positivity. You need to have some empathy for people who can't see things the way you do. Especially your own spouse. That is more likely to help him think from your perspective. You are not going to argue him into seeing things your way. Just love and accept him, flaws and all.
I was going to suggest if Mrs Miller (who I have great empathy for, as over time my marriage too has become mixed politically) if she can keep the political conversations limited to specific issues she cares about most (like gender) and less about Trump vs generic Democrat, which can spiral our further and further.
I could. How if at all would you advise responding to Trump is dangerous comments?
With my wife, and to be clear I'm doing a write in vote, I don't play dumb, but I will make a non-committal response if it's something I think could be a thing if we went further into it. Something like "Huh. Is that right?" or "Huh, I don't know about that."
Recently she was flummoxed by an Hispanic coworker who is voting for Trump. This woman seems to be often defending Hispanics and complaining about how other ethnic groups are treated in the progressive racial hierarchy. I just left it at "Well, people have different values and group interests," though I really wanted to get into *why* the progressive impulse to have a race based spoils system could backfire.
Does he need to love and accept her, too? Does he need to rein in his contempt for her, too?
Or, does that only go one way?
We know what you're going to answer, don't we.
🙏🏼
You know what I'm going to answer? That's presumptuous. It sounds like you have a much contempt for me as Mrs Miller does for her husband.
Can I ask who you're voting for?
I am a lifelong Democrat since voting for Dukakis in my first election in 1988. Campaigned for Clinton on my college campus in '92. Did get out the vote activities for Obama first term. Also pro-choice activist, I used to do clinic defense in New York City and was on the first national board of directors of a national pro-choice student group. I won't vote Democrat anymore because they don't know what a woman is. I am a massive, loud and proud terf and attend local politicians' town halls to ask them their opinions on the gender cult. Shoved Reem Al Salem's statement to the UN on Women in Sports into Sue Altman's hands at the end of her Town Hall in New Jersey a couple weeks ago as her handlers were blocking me from talking to her and she was scurrying out of the building (while wear wearing my Woman: Adult Human Female tee, of course). I am not voting for President, I will write in Kara Dansky or JK Rowling. Can't stand Kamala and can't bring myself to vote for Trump because he is a disgusting misogynist pig. I will vote Republican in all the down ballots. My husband is former Democrat, now voting for Trump because of immigration and the gender cult. My 72 year old second wave feminist mother is all excited to vote for a woman. My 80 year old stepfather is career military and a lifelong Republican, one of the most decent men I know, he's a Trump voter. And my 20 year old daughter moved out of my house last fall and a month later sent an email to the entire family that she never felt "like a girl" and is now going by a different name and "he/they" pronouns. She hasn't spoken to me in a year. So, yes, this is all very personal to me. And not worth fighting with family members about. I am just trying to keep us all together at this point.
Totally fair. Thank you for your reply. Appreciate it.
This! You won’t argue him into respecting you. Maybe living with the fact he won’t ever respect your political opinions is something you will get to.
Thank you for putting it all out there, as always. I think you and your husband are amazing. Both vulnerable, both whole-hearted, both jerks, both committed, both everything. I am also a human being, so am good at recognizing fellow human beings.
Thank you so much. I appreciate your seeing the balance between me and the mister. Especially after opening myself up to criticism. Appreciate you DO!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
This was Super uncomfortable to read lol. I actually couldn’t finish it Mrs! I avoid these types of arguments like the plague in my marriage. I call them the go no where arguments. It’s best avoided 😉 and more talking usually doesn’t make it better. Sometimes I just give silence to the most provoking of things that are said. It’s actually more powerful than arguing back.
Hi Sam, thanks for letting me know. I don't blame you for not finishing. It was uncomfortable to post too. I did it because of the brittle partisan tenor running through the culture right now and since I err on the side of sharing, well, who better than me. I also err on the side of stirring the pot, apparently. 😂 fwiw the silence had grown too swollen. I popped it like a boil. Now it's draining. The next post won't be as brutal. Thanks for your support. ❤️
For what it's worth (because everyone has opinions and only you live your life): I think you may be baiting him. And he is being condescending. Neither approach to a disagreement is beneficial to the marriage---which will hopefully last longer than the next president's term no matter who it is.
That's the key. Yes, he is blind to the flaws of Harris, but he's willing to overlook them to vote against Trump (which so far is the only reason people are voting for her). You recognize many of Trump's flaws, but you are willing to overlook them for the policies he will bring, especially around social and cultural issues. Both candidates are flawed and corrupt. He, at least, won a nomination to this office.
Her history in being elected is interesting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Kamala_Harris). She barely won district attorney in 2003 and then won as incumbent after that, BUT if you look at the map, you'll see that her support is only in the coastal areas and one county in the Inland Empire. Huge swaths of the state did not vote for her. This is what will happen to the US if the democrats eliminate the electoral college. Mob rule by coastal elites. Additionally, she has said that she would removed the filibuster to pass abortion law with no protections for religious abstention and no limits on viability (and she won't say that she wouldn't do as Walz did by signing an order of protection for doctors not provide care for babies born alive during an abortion.) Regardless of where anyone stands on abortion, the willingness to change the checks and balances of the United State Congress(the legislation branch) to further an agenda is far more dangerous that Trump calling himself dictator-for-a-day.
Plenty of good arguments to vote against Harris, but I don't think, with two weeks left, civil discourse over politics will improve your marriage. I think it's more important to focus on the things over which you both have control, beginning with avoiding condescension and baiting.
HUGS to you---and all the best for November 6.
Mrs M, I'm highly sympathetic to your situation, but I'm gonna be that friend who tells you the truth as I see it.
(Stop here and delete this comment if that's not what you want.)
OK, here goes: I think the lion's share of the blame is on you here.
Capsule summary of the start: "Mrs asked her husband, “Do you think there’s going to be chaos after the election?” ... Mr answered yes. Mrs asked if he thought it would be the same level of chaos no matter who won.... Mr said it would be worse if Kamala Harris won, because “Trump likes to rile people up.” Mrs gritted her teeth."
I think Mr's assessment of the situation is pretty reasonable, and I also think that most political observers would think that too, all across the spectrum of politial opinion. So if that's the kind of answer that's going to get you to "grit your teeth", IMO it's a question you shouldn't be asking.
I wonder what you thought you would gain by asking that question.
Hi Mark, totally fine. I appreciate you weighing in. I can see now that you detailed it so specifically, how you and the two other commenters believe I baited him. And you know what? You're right.
Of course I'm not acting alone.
I believe it's possible that he baited me back with his "Trump riles" comment, but I started it.
Regarding your commentary: "I think Mr's assessment of the situation is pretty reasonable, and I also think that most political observers would think that too, all across the spectrum of politial opinion," I find that people on the left, where I came from, feel freer to share their political opinions—aka trump hatred—because they assume everyone agrees—a foregone conclusion that everyone takes for granted, like—cigarettes are bad for you—like DUH. Whereas conservatives keep their lips buttoned because so many of us have experienced that very Trump hatred in our midst when we know we will be voting for him and disagree with their views.
So Maybe Mr was assuming I'd see eye to eye that of course Trump riles people up. How was he to know that that specific line would trigger me, since it's one of the fundamental DARVO techniques the left uses—like when they repeatedly call Trump "Hitler," they rile their party to the point of, for example, writing letters like the ones I documented in recent posts.
It was Joseph Goebbels after all who famously said, "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
I think in the end, truth is my ultimate value. What that means for my marriage remains to be seen. For now we still love each other.
Well I hope you can hang in there Mrs M, and with whatever "hanging in there" means to you. Of course you have the tremendous stress caused by Miss M's actions to deal with and process, which makes everything so much harder.
I was married for 39 years until my wife died of cancer 3 years ago. We generally agreed on most things social/political (both on the left) but not everything: for example, she was a super-adamant opponent of nuclear power whereas I thought it was needed to help stave off climate change. So we dealt with that by not discussing it very often. There wasn't much point: neither of us was going to change our minds, and we'd just end up both mad if we tried. Every so often she would read something (like about how the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant not too far from us was, Oopsies!, actually built over an earthquake fault that was much more likely to go off than had been previously believed) and get all worked up about it, and I would just say, yeah, that's not good, I hope something can be done to make it safer, yada yada.
Truth is not my ultimate value, because I believe that none of us knows what the truth is. I suppose I would say it's love, as cliched as that sounds. Do I wish I had spent more time trying to convince my wife that nuclear power was, on the whole, safer than burning fossil fuels? Well no I don't. What I actually wish is that I had spent more time not getting mad at her about that, or about anything else that we ever fought about. When I put flowers at her grave, all the fights that we ever had feel really really dumb.
I feel you Mark, thank you 🙏🏼
I find the comment “ some things have been blown out of proportion” to be astounding. Um yeah…. Ya think?! Only when it applies to liberalism I guess.🤦
Well, I've already read your follow up post. But here is my two cents worth.
If your voice is raised... in volume or by tone, you are no longer fully rational. Some are better at managing their presentation than others. If your voice or tone changes, check yourself and stop the conversation. Go to the bathroom, offer to get them something while you get yourself a beverage. Take an "organic" pause and while apart, pray earnestly for guidance and understanding.
Understand that some folks, naturally take an opposing view without really being aware of this... might your Mr. be of that variety? Or yourself? Try an experiment. My husband and I did this often in our early days. Pick some random (non political) thing and ask a question. Like, if we won the lottery what would you like to do with half the money? Or, if we could live anywhere, would you choose city or country? Beach or Mountain? What job or profession other than your own would you like to try? What profession would you never attempt?
This sets the stage. Don't dwell on the topics overmuch. Then say, "you know, these are the things I can respect/admire/appreciate about Harris". Then be honest. And sincere. Don't elaborate too much. Then ask the same question of Mr. about Trump. And accept what he says with respect and sincere interest. Then, change the subject. Repeat, changing the questions each time. Do this often but not every day. Resist the urge to argue. Ask questions carefully. This will reset your contentious communication style, hopefully. That's when you can have meaningful deep conversations on mute controversial topics always with the idea of finding common ground.
Remember, men think and communicate differently than women. Respect that difference and eventually he will respect it too. And you as well. You admitting you baited him and his tearful response was a profound moment in your marriage worthy of careful loving contemplation and taking responsibility for your part is the key. Gentle encouraging of his responsibility may be necessary if he makes no comment to that effect, and you don't want to do that on the same day. Ever.
You sound like pretty awesome folks. I hope you are able to weather this.
For the record, I agree with all your points about Trump. My gut tells me if you flipped your view to support for Harris, he might move more towards Trump. That's just how some folks are. I could be wrong. Remember your souls were attracted to each other for a reason.
And then again, I may have my head up my rectum. FWIW. Thanks for sharing your world and relationship with us. Very brave. Good luck and God bless.
My husband and I clashed over politics. Now, we are luckily more aligned. Things I learned:
1) You cannot change him or his beliefs. Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.
2) Disrespect for some is good banter for others. I learned this hearing hubby chat with friends. To me, they were rude to each other. To him, it was banter and they went out for lunch afterwards.
3) Some topics are best avoided.
4) Sometimes, questions are better than arguments.
5) Cultivate non-politics topics to connect about.
I am saying this as a non-American who has only been married for just under 5 years. My thoughts are with you all.